Comments on: From the Garden to the City: Technology in the Story of Redemption http://donteatthefruit.com/2009/07/from-the-garden-to-the-city-technology-in-the-story-of-redemptive/ Technology is Fast, but Redemption is Slow Wed, 08 Sep 2010 12:41:09 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Dan http://donteatthefruit.com/2009/07/from-the-garden-to-the-city-technology-in-the-story-of-redemptive/#comment-5228 Dan Mon, 21 Sep 2009 22:13:25 +0000 http://donteatthefruit.com/?p=393#comment-5228 Interesting post because recently I have been studying art and creativity from almost the same perspective as what you consider technology. Aspects of consumerism definitely seep into my technological creativity as I continually want more hardware and software to... create. I consider myself a visual worship leader and I embrace a digital workflow all done in hopes of glorifying God and leading others to worship. I hope my latest update for CS4 isn't a fig leaf? Good thoughts. Less is more... maybe? Interesting post because recently I have been studying art and creativity from almost the same perspective as what you consider technology. Aspects of consumerism definitely seep into my technological creativity as I continually want more hardware and software to… create. I consider myself a visual worship leader and I embrace a digital workflow all done in hopes of glorifying God and leading others to worship. I hope my latest update for CS4 isn’t a fig leaf? Good thoughts. Less is more… maybe?

]]> By: Rhett Smith http://donteatthefruit.com/2009/07/from-the-garden-to-the-city-technology-in-the-story-of-redemptive/#comment-3866 Rhett Smith Fri, 31 Jul 2009 05:56:58 +0000 http://donteatthefruit.com/?p=393#comment-3866 John, Great post...privileged that I saw you speak today a little on this topic. I have that book on my shelf and have only skimmed...but now I will go read it. Would love to talk more with you about it. Let me say one thing. Your talk today, and posts like this have really helped me become more clear with myself that I desire depth, and not just breadth...something you talked about today. We need more depth like yours in the discussion. Thanks for inspiring others to do that. Rhett John,

Great post…privileged that I saw you speak today a little on this topic. I have that book on my shelf and have only skimmed…but now I will go read it. Would love to talk more with you about it.

Let me say one thing. Your talk today, and posts like this have really helped me become more clear with myself that I desire depth, and not just breadth…something you talked about today. We need more depth like yours in the discussion. Thanks for inspiring others to do that.

Rhett

]]> By: Trey Hill http://donteatthefruit.com/2009/07/from-the-garden-to-the-city-technology-in-the-story-of-redemptive/#comment-3799 Trey Hill Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:39:26 +0000 http://donteatthefruit.com/?p=393#comment-3799 John, I really enjoyed this post. The imagery of a journey from garden to city & how God is at work in humanity to get us Home again is quite powerful. I'm personally wrestling with your third bullet. How do we not forsake "the city" when it seems to be a machine of oppression? How do we not forsake capitalism, when its ultimate end is more wealth for the wealthy on the backs of the impoverished? Today and ancient Egypt seem inseparably connected and the only good I can see coming out of an Egypt experience is the Exodus. And maybe that's your point... the tangible out-workings and misuse of technology should serve to breed hope in the hearts of the captives and turn faces back to The Creator, affording God an opportunity to magnify his glory. John, I really enjoyed this post. The imagery of a journey from garden to city & how God is at work in humanity to get us Home again is quite powerful.

I'm personally wrestling with your third bullet. How do we not forsake "the city" when it seems to be a machine of oppression? How do we not forsake capitalism, when its ultimate end is more wealth for the wealthy on the backs of the impoverished?

Today and ancient Egypt seem inseparably connected and the only good I can see coming out of an Egypt experience is the Exodus. And maybe that's your point… the tangible out-workings and misuse of technology should serve to breed hope in the hearts of the captives and turn faces back to The Creator, affording God an opportunity to magnify his glory.

]]> By: John L http://donteatthefruit.com/2009/07/from-the-garden-to-the-city-technology-in-the-story-of-redemptive/#comment-3769 John L Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:12:23 +0000 http://donteatthefruit.com/?p=393#comment-3769 John, xlnt thoughts, as always. In your framing, the idea of "technology" can be expanded into just about anything that can wedge between Spirit and humanity. Capitalism is a great example, as is religion-as-ideology. interesting how emerging social technologies have the power to both accelerate the good news while simultaneously usurping it. Looking forward to that book. John, xlnt thoughts, as always. In your framing, the idea of "technology" can be expanded into just about anything that can wedge between Spirit and humanity. Capitalism is a great example, as is religion-as-ideology. interesting how emerging social technologies have the power to both accelerate the good news while simultaneously usurping it. Looking forward to that book.

]]> By: johndyer http://donteatthefruit.com/2009/07/from-the-garden-to-the-city-technology-in-the-story-of-redemptive/#comment-3757 johndyer Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:21:47 +0000 http://donteatthefruit.com/?p=393#comment-3757 Sam, I think you've hit on a some great questions. About the city, I think you're asking, Is the diabolism inherent in the technology (a 'ghost in the machine') or is it driven by human sinfulness? Reading Ellul's works makes me think that it's all mixed up together, and can't be cleanly separated. For example, capitalism seems to favor efficiency and speed, which inevitably results in some people getting left behind. Capitalism might be a better overall system than other economic choices, but whether good or bad people are using it, it seems that good people down on the totem pole always get crushed by it eventually. It makes me long for the day when God will clean it all up! Sam, I think you've hit on a some great questions. About the city, I think you're asking, Is the diabolism inherent in the technology (a 'ghost in the machine') or is it driven by human sinfulness? Reading Ellul's works makes me think that it's all mixed up together, and can't be cleanly separated. For example, capitalism seems to favor efficiency and speed, which inevitably results in some people getting left behind. Capitalism might be a better overall system than other economic choices, but whether good or bad people are using it, it seems that good people down on the totem pole always get crushed by it eventually. It makes me long for the day when God will clean it all up!

]]> By: johndyer http://donteatthefruit.com/2009/07/from-the-garden-to-the-city-technology-in-the-story-of-redemptive/#comment-3755 johndyer Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:15:01 +0000 http://donteatthefruit.com/?p=393#comment-3755 Carl, thanks for your excellent thoughts! Carl, thanks for your excellent thoughts!

]]> By: johndyer http://donteatthefruit.com/2009/07/from-the-garden-to-the-city-technology-in-the-story-of-redemptive/#comment-3756 johndyer Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:14:10 +0000 http://donteatthefruit.com/?p=393#comment-3756 Brian, great question! I would probably say that whenever we share the gospel, by whatever means, it's always going to be imperfect. And yet, the the Holy Spirit still makes our imperfect attempts salvific. So, I'm glad for things like like T4 global while also trying to contain my excitement about technology, so that I don't misplace my trust. Brian, great question! I would probably say that whenever we share the gospel, by whatever means, it's always going to be imperfect. And yet, the the Holy Spirit still makes our imperfect attempts salvific. So, I'm glad for things like like T4 global while also trying to contain my excitement about technology, so that I don't misplace my trust.

]]> By: Sam X http://donteatthefruit.com/2009/07/from-the-garden-to-the-city-technology-in-the-story-of-redemptive/#comment-3741 Sam X Tue, 21 Jul 2009 23:17:20 +0000 http://donteatthefruit.com/?p=393#comment-3741 John...I will definitely pre-order your book as soon as it is available! I've been thinking about these things for a little while now, even alongside your point about clothing and sewing as the first technology and processes — and God making animal skins as his early involvement in producing artifacts for humans. Also interesting are the next few things he produces in Genesis: a flaming sword; and a little later, a large boat for Noah (not to mention the detailed engineering instructions and processes). According to the biblical narrative it seems that these things somehow exist in the mind of God, which makes me wonder...what do clothes, weapons, tools, and vehicles have to do with the Kingdom of God? On your point #3 (the "city" tends to reward the rich and oppress the poor) I don't really follow. What do you think are the factors that make this tendency? Is it the economics of the situation (we, the city, want things cheaper)? Is it ill moral character (the city is just evil and wants to oppress poor people)? What is really happening in this situation? John…I will definitely pre-order your book as soon as it is available! I've been thinking about these things for a little while now, even alongside your point about clothing and sewing as the first technology and processes — and God making animal skins as his early involvement in producing artifacts for humans. Also interesting are the next few things he produces in Genesis: a flaming sword; and a little later, a large boat for Noah (not to mention the detailed engineering instructions and processes).

According to the biblical narrative it seems that these things somehow exist in the mind of God, which makes me wonder…what do clothes, weapons, tools, and vehicles have to do with the Kingdom of God?

On your point #3 (the "city" tends to reward the rich and oppress the poor) I don't really follow. What do you think are the factors that make this tendency? Is it the economics of the situation (we, the city, want things cheaper)? Is it ill moral character (the city is just evil and wants to oppress poor people)? What is really happening in this situation?

]]> By: Carl Franzon http://donteatthefruit.com/2009/07/from-the-garden-to-the-city-technology-in-the-story-of-redemptive/#comment-3736 Carl Franzon Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:09:32 +0000 http://donteatthefruit.com/?p=393#comment-3736 John, I was baiting you a little bit with the first comment - you have been clear that technology is not neutral, but the statement that it can both "humanize and dehumanize" made it seem like you were supporting the thought that technology is just a neutral tool which we use for good or bad as opposed to the idea that simply by using it we are being shaped by it. i was just checking to make sure that you hadn't made a wild turnaround in your thinking. As to the second point, I like where you are going with this. ISTM that one of the keys is that technology and modernization tends to separate us more and more from the impact of our choices. For example, i don't see the results of my buying six different computers in the last year and where all of those old ones went. There is also a strong connection between technology and consumerism in this discussion. Technology has changed our production capacity such that we are consuming far more than ever before (both because it's cheaper and we are subjected to more and more advertising) and we have become so reliant on technology and caught up in having the latest that we are always buying more and more. Or, your example of soda - how many resources are used up to produce a canned drink that has less nutritional value than a glass of water from the faucet? One other thought is how technology is seen as solution/savior, for example when computers are given to people in Africa as a way to "help" them. In other words, what they really need is more technology just like us. As always - thanks for making me think. John, I was baiting you a little bit with the first comment – you have been clear that technology is not neutral, but the statement that it can both "humanize and dehumanize" made it seem like you were supporting the thought that technology is just a neutral tool which we use for good or bad as opposed to the idea that simply by using it we are being shaped by it. i was just checking to make sure that you hadn't made a wild turnaround in your thinking.
As to the second point, I like where you are going with this. ISTM that one of the keys is that technology and modernization tends to separate us more and more from the impact of our choices. For example, i don't see the results of my buying six different computers in the last year and where all of those old ones went. There is also a strong connection between technology and consumerism in this discussion. Technology has changed our production capacity such that we are consuming far more than ever before (both because it's cheaper and we are subjected to more and more advertising) and we have become so reliant on technology and caught up in having the latest that we are always buying more and more. Or, your example of soda – how many resources are used up to produce a canned drink that has less nutritional value than a glass of water from the faucet?
One other thought is how technology is seen as solution/savior, for example when computers are given to people in Africa as a way to "help" them. In other words, what they really need is more technology just like us.
As always – thanks for making me think.

]]> By: Brian Walck http://donteatthefruit.com/2009/07/from-the-garden-to-the-city-technology-in-the-story-of-redemptive/#comment-3727 Brian Walck Tue, 21 Jul 2009 14:19:36 +0000 http://donteatthefruit.com/?p=393#comment-3727 I like this, John. How does the use of technology to advance the gospel factor into this? I think of TWR's use of radio or T4 Global's use of MP3 technology. I like this, John. How does the use of technology to advance the gospel factor into this? I think of TWR's use of radio or T4 Global's use of MP3 technology.

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